Nikolai Mather: Alright, John – thank you so much for joining us. So this show is called "The Naked Truth" — tell us about it.
John Waters: Well, it's about everything. I rewrite my spoken word show I do once a year, and then another time for Christmas. So it's a completely different show. If you saw the show I did last year, it is 100% 70 minutes of new material. It's about everything: it's about politics, it's about fashion, it's about art, it's about my movies… But my movies I just use almost as a skeleton to tell other stories about because I've been doing this for fifty years. So it's a vaudeville act. Actually, I've been doing it for really a long time, and I have fifty-two of them scheduled this year. So I'm really, I'm a carny. I'm on the road all the time. It's a comedy show, really.
NM: Is there anything in particular you're looking forward to discussing?
JW: I'm not going to tell you. I'll give away my material. But certainly the new political situation we're in, is definitely hard to joke about. Because they don't care if you make fun of them. So it's about that. I mean, what do we do now to protest? And how can you have comic terrorism? And I mean like we did in the 60s. And I mean terrorism in a good way, where you use humor to embarrass your enemy, your political enemy.
But I do talk about what you can do today. I talk about how to make new movies in a business that right now, the movie business that I know no longer exists. How everything is completely different now, except youth's duty, which is to startle me.
NM: Is it more startling now than in the 60s?
JW: Well, I'm never the kind of old person that said we had more fun in the 60s. They're having just as much fun now, they're just doing it in a different way. That just means you're an old fart and you don't know what's going on. I have youth spies that tell me about new music. I go to new clubs in each city. You have to do that if you want to know what's going on.
But at the same time, it's different. In the last year, it's radically changed. I never get any censorship much anymore, but if I had to fear it, it would have been from the left in the last year. But now it is back to where I'm used to, to the stupid right. So, you know, we're back to how I used to know how to fight censorship. I mean, I always said you should be hope your book is on the banned book section. It's in the front of the books or next to the cash register in the banned book section. It's not in the gay part by true crime near the bathroom in the back.
NM: How is the right's method of censorship different from the left's?
JW: They don't care. You could say anything. Now, I heard a right wing person friend of mine just say, "you can say anything." What are you going to do? There's no more trigger warnings or no anything. You can do anything you want, which is kind of startling. Who cares? They don't care. So it's a hard way to figure out what we can do to rebel against a political party that even ruined bad taste. That's not even fun anymore.
NM: How did they ruin bad taste?
JW: Trump ruined bad taste. His wife ruined bad taste with those Christmas decorations. That was the final nail.
NM: Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah, I remember those.
JW: I'm not saying that Trump didn't ever say anything funny. He did say during the debates, to Harris, "Biden hates you." I couldn't believe he said that, that he didn't mean for that to be funny, but it was kind of because — I wish I had been her writer, and she should have responded, "I know you are, but what am I?"
NM: They say he's the comedian Americans deserve.
JW: Well, I don't know. I don't think America does deserve it. I think America deserves the best. And that's the scary thing, is that the whole world now is sort of stupefied that we used to be their friend and the leader. But I talk all about that, and I talk about what you can do, what you can do with movies and with art and with fashion, and how to rebel now, when your parents want you to be your best friend – you kids don't want your parents to be your best friend. They want you to set rules they can break.
NM: You've joked before about appealing to minorities who are minorities in their own communities.
JW: Yes, my core people are minorities that don't even get along with their other minority, with the same people and their minorities they rebel against that. That's my core group.
NM: Like gay people who don't jibe with the wider gay scene, correct?
JW: I think that progress is admitting there is bad gay music. A lot of gay music's horrible, but I think that's progress. To say it's not gay is a good start. It's not enough, though. I think it's progress to say there's untalented African American poets, you know. I mean, just because you're a minority does not mean every single person makes good art in that minority. But it's now so much more mixed, and it's so much more fun to be young now, because they all wish they were bisexual, even when they're not. And I talk about how hard that must be for young people.
NM: You know, it's funny. I was having a conversation with my little sister — she's 16 years old, and she was telling me about, like, the latest gossip at school, and she told me that her friends were gossiping about this guy because there were rumors that he was homophobic. And like, mind you, this is like in rural North Carolina, right? And I was like, 10 years ago, [the rumors] would have been that he's gay.
JW: Exactly. That's what I mean. And so it's like straight people are — they get hassled now in rich kids' colleges, but it's all kind of good, because people, they could get uptight. There's no more gay bars. I think that's progress. The young gay people, they don't want to be segregated and just with gay people. They want to hang around with everybody. And I think I've never been a separatist. I think it's – I want to hear straight people's worst night too.
NM: So are there any gay or trans artists, musicians, that you think are successfully appealing to the margins right now?
JW: God, yeah, there's certainly musicians. I always don't know their sexuality. I mean, I'm the only person in the world except Quentin Tarantino who thought [Todd Phillips'] Joker was a great movie, and the new Joker, I thought it was really good. And I think Lady Gaga was fabulous in it. So, God knows, she works every day to to startle and to, you know, mix people up. And I think that's what's more important — sexual confusion is humor today. And I think that's that's much more exciting.
I mean, I remember… the first trans [woman] ever that I knew about in the 50s was Christine Jorgensen. And I remember the best headline about her — I guess you could never have today, but now, I guess you could have it again with Trump — but it said, "He goes abroad and comes back a broad." That's kind of great. And she didn't dislike it.
She said, "I'm not gay because I can't have sex with a man until I'm a woman." Well, that explains it. That's the easiest way to explain it to people that don't understand. And even Trump said to his followers a few years ago, "you didn't even know what trans was two years ago," and they didn't.
NM: No, they didn't.
Alright, John — you have a couple fans round the office, and I wanted to make sure they had a chance to ask you any burning questions. First up: my editor Ben Schachtman is here with me. Ben?
Ben Schachtman: Alright, my question is: for a long time, I actually taught transgressive literature, and I don't know what the hell would be transgressive today. Are there any sacred cows left to tip over?
JW: Oh, sure, there are. But you don't always want to just do sacred cows because they are, because it's trying too hard. Let's just say I would never do comedy about Israel right now, it's a lose-lose situation for me. I don't live in either country. You can't do comedy about that… It's easier to do a joke about a minority that you are, but it's really a good joke if you get away with it and you do a joke about a minority that you're not.
So what is, what is a transgressive novel? Let me think. What was that book I loved? It was 1000 pages long, and it was one sentence. It had "duck" in the title. It's a really beautiful novel, I would say that was pretty transgressive.
NM: You're not thinking of Hurricane Season, are you?
JW: Nope. Just Google "novel by a woman that had 1000 pages one sentence." I don't know that there's more than one.
NM: We'll get our fact-checkers on it. Don't worry. [Ed. note: it was Ducks, Newburyport by Lucy Ellman.]
Next question is from George Domby, who's our finance director. His question for you is as follows: John Waters was supposed to be directing a movie based on his own novel, Liarmouth, and Aubrey Plaza had committed to starring in the film. But in November, he told the Houston Chronicle that the film was no longer happening because no one was willing to finance it. My question would be: to what does he attribute the funding issues, and could this current state of the world be too sick and demented even for a John Waters movie?
JW: No, that's not it. An average-priced Hollywood movie today is fifty or sixty million. Mine was below that, but it certainly wasn't five. That's what I texted to Sean Baker when he won the Oscar [for Anora]: "Great. Now they're all going to think we have to make movies for a $6 million budget. Thank you."
But this movie, you can't. It's a complicated movie with a huge cast and special effects. It was a weird movie that wasn't cheap. That's why it didn't get made. And art houses are having a tough time. You know, you can't ever say the word "cult" in Hollywood. That means, to them, "Six smart people like it and it lost money." My films always do well eventually, but they don't always do well right away. And that's all they care about.
I went and pitched everywhere in Hollywood, and they all said, "we like it. We like everything, but just, nobody's green lighting anything anymore right now, unless it's a giant commercial, big, huge budget movie that's international." You know, and I'm never going to really make them. I don't understand science fiction. I'd be really bad at it, and I don't read comic books, so those two genres I would fail at. So I'm not going to set myself up to fail. Maybe I could make Little Lulu a fifty to $100-million movie.
NM: That's interesting — they said David Lynch had similar issues trying to make his final project before he passed.
JW: I don't know anybody that can get a movie made right now. Every peer I know, no one can get it made. But look, I knew that a long time ago. Yeah, I write books. I do fifty shows a year. I have more jobs than I've ever had in my life right now. So I'm not complaining, because I always have a way to tell stories. And I've written about six, seven books too, and they do okay, you know? So I have many ways, many different careers, and that's my advice to young people, is never fear the answer no, because all you need is one yes. You get a lot of nos. And also, always have a backup plan. Sometimes… you have a hit, they let you make a movie. If you don't, they don't.
I don't feel bitter about Hollywood. Are you kidding? They've been great to me. They paid me when they didn't make the movie!
NM: Are there any jobs outside of Hollywood you'd like to try?
JW: Well, I always thought that I wanted… I'm not a singer, but I did have a song that came out this year on Sub Pop where I covered the barking dogs singing Jingle Bells. [barks]
NM: Yes!
JW: So I did have a singing record. I've had two Grammy nominations for audiobooks. So the only things… I have never written a play. I have never written poetry. I think those are the only two things that I haven't done that I still might.
NM: Well, I would love to read your poetry. I think that'd be amazing.
JW: Well, that's the first thing I ever wrote when I thought I wanted to be a beatnik when I was 11 years old.
NM: Well, there's still time.
You brought up singing. I was listening to your autobiography, where you tell your life story through different people, different role models. First chapter was Johnny Mathis, and I was just swept away by this idea of you being his biggest fan.
JW: He was very lovely when the book came out. He said, "You made me famous again," which he was already. I didn't make him famous again, but he was absolutely lovely. He came to a dinner party that Greg Gorman and I have with Elton John, and he sang "Chances Are." Oh, he was wonderful. He told the best stories. He was a great sport about me being his biggest fan.
NM: Do you have any particular song of his that you really like?
JW: I think, "Wonderful, Wonderful." That was the very first time I ever went to a teenage makeout party. And I was about 10 years old, and it was in the club cellar, and everybody was making out to that song. So that's something you never forget.
NM: Make out music, yeah, yeah.
JW: He was the king of makeout music. He still is. He still does a Christmas show at 90.
NM: I always got the impression that bedroom pop music was a very contemporary thing.
JW: There's makeout music still. I mean, slow music is all makeout music and romantic music.
NM: Yeah, Portishead, so on and so forth.
JW: Beach House. That's a good makeout group. I don't know, because she spits when she sings, so that's even better.
NM: Well, speaking of Johnny Mathis – you actually interviewed him for your book, and you discussed the whole process of preparing for the interview and asking him questions and all that. I'm curious, do you prefer interviewing someone or being interviewed?
JW: Well, what I don't like is when a magazine calls up and asks me to record it and then writes it "by John Waters." That's rip off journalism. Or the worst thing is, at the end of an interview – they should teach this in journalism school – never ask, "is there anything you'd like to say or have a–" No. You get paid to ask the questions. I answer them. That's the deal. If I have to think up the questions too, give me something back.
NM: That's the exact opposite of what I was taught in journalism class!
JW: Never ask that question. That means you're unprepared. It's a lazy journalist that says to you, "well, anything you'd like to say?" No. The same way, if you direct a movie, you don't say to the movie star, "So what do you think?" They want you to tell them what to do!! That's why you're called a director.
NM: Well, my last question for you: at the beginning of our conversation, you kind of alluded to your youth spies. You talked about how you are trying to use this show to give some words of advice where applicable to young people trying to get through this latest iteration of political craziness.
JW: And old people too.
NM: And old people too, yeah, yeah. I was wondering, is there anything in particular that you see, like the younger generations, or just the current generations getting right?
JW: So far, they're getting right that, basically, that they're open to all sexual things. The funny thing is, you can't fake you're bisexual but they have to, and it must be hard. I try to tell them, you know, you can practice at the oyster bar.
NM: [laughs] So faking bisexuality aside, anything else?
JW: Well, that politics, we don't ever… we lost the election because – I'm saying we. I did not vote for Trump, but I'm friends with people that did. We just don't talk about it. But we lost because we made the enemy feel stupid and they got mad. You don't make the enemy feel stupid. You make them laugh, you get their attention, then you have sex with them, and then you can change their mind.
NM: Get them to stop faking it, yeah.
JW: Yeah, that's my politics. You don't make them feel stupid even when they are. That's why, even in Baltimore, Hairspray really was sneaky. Even racists liked Hairspray. They were too stupid to realize that it made fun of them. That's sneaking in, and that's using humor as a weapon, and that is the best humor. Freud wrote a whole book about jokes — all jokes are political.
All jokes are twisted and crazy and funny, but jokes and humor is how you protect yourself and how you go to war.
John Waters will be performing at UNCW's Kenan Auditorium on March 22nd.
