A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
For more on how Republicans are reacting to the back-and-forth between President Trump and Pope Leo, we've called up political consultant Sarah Longwell. She's founder and publisher of The Bulwark, a conservative-leaning media outlet. She also hosts The Focus Group Podcast. So, Sarah, you hear from Republican voters a lot. How do they feel about the deleted Jesus image and Trump and Vice President Vance criticism of the pope?
SARAH LONGWELL: Yeah. Well, we just talked to a group of Catholic Trump voters yesterday, and they were very critical of the pope. And I - it sound to me like they weren't just newly critical of the Pope because of the back-and-forth with Donald Trump. They seem to be critical of the pope for a variety of reasons. They don't like his position on immigration and how he's been talking about immigrants, and they just think he is too liberal as a pope. And so they were on Trump's side on this. And you do have to understand about a lot of these, you know, hardcore Trump voters - they have 10 years of experience of sort of being able to justify or rationalize a lot of Trump's actions.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah. So I was about to ask you - what do they think of that picture where Trump says he was a doctor and not trying to pretend he was Jesus Christ?
LONGWELL: Well, part of what was interesting is they were angrier about that particular picture than they were about Trump and J.D. Vance's sort of hot war with the actual pope, because they did find that to be a bridge too far. But again, they sort of had this experience, this built-in infrastructure to kind of rationalize and say, you know, he shouldn't do that. I've never liked how he posts on social media. He pops off too much. But also, I think he's doing a good job. Or, I think he's, you know, right in general about a lot of these issues. And so it's not the kind of thing that causes them to totally break with Trump.
MARTÍNEZ: So there was not a single one that said, this is a line that can't - that I can't cross.
LONGWELL: No. They were certainly - they were critical of it. But...
MARTÍNEZ: OK.
LONGWELL: I hear this all the time in focus groups, where voters say, well, I didn't like that Trump did this, but I like what he's doing on immigration. Or, I like what he's doing on, you know, keeping men out of women's sports, which actually came up a lot in the Catholic focus group. And they use those things as a reason to say, just directionally, they're OK with Trump, and they don't get wrapped up in the specifics of these things.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, you shared a couple of clips of people you talked to in that recent focus group of Catholics, and we should mention that your podcast does not give the names of the people you talk to. This is a woman who says she likes Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: When I look at some of these, you know, the pope is basically, oh, we have to keep all the immigrants here. And why not open up the Vatican walls and let them live with you if you think it's such a great idea? We're not being Catholic anymore, and I think Trump's bringing it to light because there's - the Catholic Church has been infiltrated as well as our government.
MARTÍNEZ: So infiltrated. What does she think that means - the Catholic Church and government have been infiltrated?
LONGWELL: You know, there's a - especially for very hardcore Trump voters, there's a bit of a QAnon, deep-state kind of language that sometimes comes up. She actually ends that quotation with a, trust the plan, which is a very specific nod to QAnon. We get those in the groups quite a bit. I would say, though, generally in the group, there was more of - they weren't all as far as her. It was more just a, I think that the pope should stay in his lane as being the pope and let Donald Trump handle politics how he sees fit to handle politics.
MARTÍNEZ: So, Sarah, just a few seconds left here. I mean, it sounds like this isn't a sign that this will have any real political impact as far as Trump's support with Catholics.
LONGWELL: Yeah. This is the kind of thing that often ends up being a tempest in a teapot, just a - you know, a couple days' worth of a news cycle. It's the economy and the state of the economy that is really causing voters to move away from Trump. I do talk to voters all the time. Lots of people are souring on Trump. I just don't think this is the thing that's causing that souring.
MARTÍNEZ: Sarah Longwell is founder and publisher of The Bulwark. Sarah, thanks.
LONGWELL: Thank you.
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