ANDREW LIMBONG, HOST:
When the rapper, Gucci Mane, was on the heat, or run, that launched his career about 15 years ago, he was putting out songs built for good times.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WASTED")
GUCCI MANE: (Rapping) Party, party, party. Let's all get wasted. Shake it for me, baby girl. Do it butt-naked. Let's party right here.
LIMBONG: But he was not having a good time. In his new book, "Episodes," he talks about his depression, his bouts of mania and anxiety, his drug abuse.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WASTED")
GUCCI MANE: (Rapping) Purple codeine Sprite pink, don't waste it. Waste it. Mix up, grandma drink it, didn't taste it. Taste it.
LIMBONG: He didn't write the book alone, and that's no slight to him. It's pretty common, actually, for famous people who aren't writers to get some help when they want to do a book. Kathy Iandoli is the cowriter of this book. On top of her original works about women in hip-hop, she's worked with the late artist, Prodigy, with T-Pain, with Eve on their books. And she's been working with Lil' Kim on a memoir. So what is it like being the go-to writer for rappers? Kathy Iandoli joins us now. Hey, Kathy. Welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
KATHY IANDOLI: Hi. Thanks for having me.
LIMBONG: Yeah. So I want to start with this most recent book, "Episodes." How did you end up working with Gucci Mane?
IANDOLI: So Gucci had been conceptualizing this book for a while. Originally, I think he wanted to do some sort of a mental health handbook to give to artists, right? And then gradually, through conversations, we started to realize that it was much bigger than a how-to, I guess you could say - and then a few things that happened in his life that he was like, you know what? I'm being called to do this. And then it was really go time. And once it was go time, it was really go time.
LIMBONG: Yeah, and so it's funny that you said it started off as a handbook because reading it, I think some of that DNA is still in there. When you said it - when you got started, really got started, was there, like, a dinner where you brought it in out from that concept or how did that work?
IANDOLI: I actually remember - it was funny. I was standing outside of a Panera when he called me.
(LAUGHTER)
IANDOLI: And we basically, like, worked through the book in a very short amount of time because he knew what he wanted to say, wasn't quite sure how to say it. There's a lot of gaps in the memory for very obvious reasons, and we touch upon that. And we visually lay that out, as well, if you see through some of the...
LIMBONG: Yeah...
IANDOLI: ...How the pages...
LIMBONG: ...Just for listeners...
IANDOLI: ...Are laid out.
LIMBONG: ...When you, like, flip through the book, there's pages of the book that literally are, like, blacked out, and you come back. It's a really inventive device, yeah.
IANDOLI: Yeah, because there's really no way to fill that space in a way that will actually make the story make any more sense than it already does. And I think what he did with that is to visually lay that out, you're truly showing the reader what it's like when your brain is absolutely on fire. But we didn't get that outside of Panera. That just...
LIMBONG: Definitely. Yeah.
IANDOLI: ...That came from (laughter) - but he definitely had these points that he was trying to make, and then, you know, needed someone to kind of help him fill in some of the blanks - and not the blanks in memory, but the blanks in how do you make this a seamless story when it's been bursting at the seams for years?
LIMBONG: Yeah. There's a lot of regret in this book.
IANDOLI: Yeah.
LIMBONG: There's that bit about when - after he puts out the song, "Pillz." I think he straight up says, like, something along the lines of, like, I helped popularize making drug abuse kind of cool. And he feels bad about it. And I was like, oof. That's intense. Was that something you had to, like...
IANDOLI: Yeah.
LIMBONG: ...Pull out of him, or was he ready - did he come to the table with that?
IANDOLI: There was a lot of epiphanies throughout the book - things that came sometimes during the interviews, things that came afterwards, right? Like, he would, like, text me or call me and be like, I've been thinking about this. And these things would come out. And it's almost like, you know, when someone goes into therapy, and they'll have their session. And then they leave, and everything pours out after the session...
(LAUGHTER)
IANDOLI: ...So then you're like, wait, this happened afterwards.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PILLZ")
GUCCI MANE: (Rapping) Ain't your name Lil' Trina cause you look like Janet Jackson. I'm off three double stacks, and I'm looking for that action.
IANDOLI: When he came to that realization of how he popularized that kind of activity in hip-hop, you know, he really was like, man. It was interesting seeing the Gucci of years later just looking at this stuff and just being like, wow...
LIMBONG: Yeah.
IANDOLI: ...You know?
LIMBONG: So broadly speaking, generally speaking, when it comes to a musical artist, if comes to it - if I'm listening to an album, I kind of don't care if an artist is, like, honest or authentic, right? If an album works, I'm sort of buying into the mythmaking. I'm buying into the persona, right?
IANDOLI: Right.
LIMBONG: It's a little different with a memoir, though. And so how do you go about pushing an artist, whoever you're working with, to be a little bit more themselves, more human?
IANDOLI: Well, the first thing I say is, are we writing a work of fiction? And if we're writing a work of fiction, we can still call it a memoir, but you and I know it's a work of fiction, right? And a lot of times someone might be like, no, no, this is me, raw, uncut, you know? And then you peel back some of the layers, and it's like, well, I don't want to say that. I'm like, so what would you say...
LIMBONG: Yeah.
IANDOLI: ...Instead? Where do you want to go from here? Do you want to make this a work of fiction, or do you want to let it all out? And listen, there are things you will always reserve for yourself. Not everyone has to know everything, despite what we are conditioned to believe by the laws of social media, right? We don't have to overshare, not even if the book advance is incredible.
LIMBONG: These days, artists have so many avenues to be in direct contact with their fans, right? Whether it's like a...
IANDOLI: Yeah.
LIMBONG: ...in-depth post on Instagram, like a TikTok video or a newsletter. Knowing what we know about publishing, books aren't necessarily, like, a moneymaker (laughter), right? So what is the draw for these artists to write a book, specifically?
IANDOLI: Well, I think that there are some artists, and I have not worked with them - let me just say - not that I wouldn't, but I have not. A lot of artists do look at it as an extension of the brand, the way someone would start a fashion line or a fragrance line. And then I got my book, like, you know? And that's sometimes very...
LIMBONG: And then also buy my vodka. And also - yeah.
IANDOLI: Right.
LIMBONG: Yeah.
IANDOLI: Right. Exactly. And that's why a lot of artists aren't ready to write their books because you know that they take that practice very seriously. So when you are ready, the one thing that, as the person who's helping, I always explain to them is like, you're not writing on your tombstone. Like, this doesn't indicate the end of a career, the end of a life. So explaining to them that writing a book, for some, is an excellent midway mark and a reflection and being able to utilize that reflection for whatever they choose to do going forward, that is one of the biggest reasons that, at least the artists that I've worked with, have chosen to write their books. Sometimes they just want to take that stop and turn around. When I do even, like, initial meetings with artists, I'm like, do you want this book to lead to TMZ or TED Talk? Like, let me know. I could do either 'cause sometimes it's just like, no, I'm here to let it all out. And I respect that too.
LIMBONG: (Laughter).
IANDOLI: Just let me know, so I know which writer thinking cap to put on.
LIMBONG: That's Kathy Iandoli. Her new book with rapper Gucci Mane is titled, "Episodes." Kathy, thank you so much.
IANDOLI: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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